Tag: Draft Picks

The 2022 Dynabowl Draft Exit Survey

Rookie Draft Survey No Comments

This exit survey was run by Chris Braithwaite, GM of Dyna Hard. I am certain that everything shown in this report is exactly right and hasn’t been twisted in any way, shape or form. Anyway, onwards…

Welcome to the 100% accurate assessment of the Dynabowl draft. Why even bother playing the games after this when we know exactly how good all of these players are going to be, right?

We’ll start out simple: average scores per team. There were two teams way out in front, with an average of 7.3. Max takes it by a nose, 7.33 to 7.25, over Chris. That’s especially impressive given Max’s admission that “I genuinely don’t know who any of the players are.” Ignorance is evidently bliss. Max was the only person to garner a 10 (apart from Goody trying to sneak a 10 in for himself), but Chris was the only person where every vote was 6 or higher. So there’s that. It’s then a drop of 0.9 down to Pete in 3rd at an average of 6.4. So lets just skip right to the bottom, where Benj is sitting with a score of 4.9, just behind Goody’s 5.0. And lets take a moment to give credit to Neil, who was the only person who managed to have his drafted rated as a 1 and yet had enough people who liked his draft to get him to a solid mid-table finish. Congrats?!

TeamRankAverageMaxMin
Max17.3105
Chris27.396
Pete36.475
Mike46.175
Neil55.881
Ian65.583
Ben & Stew7=5.374
Slatz7=5.382
Goody85.082
Benj94.973

The overall average was 5.9, so if your score was below that, you did badly. But good work overall everyone on using a reasonable scoring scale, rather than the actual NFL draft grades which seem to have A- as a fail.

Comments

Enough with the numbers, lets get to the comments. We’ll go in the same order as the rankings for this draft, so the comments get progressively worse. Lets not make this thing too cheerful, right?

Max

  • Okay
  • I like quite a few if them. Good effort
  • Loved this draft. Burks and Williams were my top 2 WRs, Pickens could easily be in there to were it not for the character concerns. He could easily have got 3 WR1s here. Generally liked the value throughout and it was difficult to pick anyone as a bust.
  • Had the capital to get some high end talent and didn’t make any boneheaded picks with it. However, endorsed domestic abuse, so swings and roundabouts.
  • Good solid team bolstering
  • Really like most of this draft, hard to be critical. Jameson Williams might be the best receiver in the draft (Watson has a higher ceiling, but way more variability). If Burks is Brown 2.0 as suggested then that’s another win at 4.

Chris

  • Some good early picks but no one after that
  • Decent. I like most of them
  • I like the receivers drafted and could be shrewd value with Pickett
  • A lot of players I had on my list. He was picking after me so maybe this should have been my draft?
  • Solid as usual
  • I don’t like Olave because he doesn’t match up physically well against anyone and I’m not sure how often even a mediocre corner will give him a free release. In space he’s Edelman-esque though. I also am very down on the whole Saints offence. Wan’Dale Robinson I like there, White I’d hoped to get and Skyy Moore could be great, although I think he’s risen a bit too high in fantasy/NFL drafts to be the player I liked as a sleeper pre-draft.

And here’s what Chris thought: “I am still not super happy with picking Moore – my rankings loved him so I just decided to trust them. Was disappointed not to get more defensive players, but I liked the couple I got.”

Pete

  • Solid and predictable
  • Hall and Watson should be fine. The rest?
  • I feel like it’s a good mix of solid chalky players (Hall, Bell) who should have a good floor and then boom/bust guys like Watson and Andersen. I liked him double dipping at CB for 2 elite prospects – they still seemed like OK value, which isn’t usually the case with the 1st CB. His team is notably better after the draft than it was before.
  • Steady
  • Wadda lodda corners.
  • It hinges heavily on Watson – Hall will be what he’ll be. Either a solid committee back who ends up mid-tier, or a clear win, but he’s the #1 pick, generally you’re going to get something there barring unforeseen things like injuries. Watson’s ceiling is right up there. If you somehow hit on the best WR in this class and the best RB, then it’s a big win.

Here’s what Pete had to say for himself: “This wonderful human being deserves all the success that is undoubtedly coming his way.”

Mike

  • Started well and then tailed off with some average picks
  • Not normally a fan of so much d early but I like what boob has done
  • Good draft capital but not sure he got any stars out of it. The defensive players are all good, but I don’t think any are going to turn his team into a contender and Walker doesn’t feel like he has top 5 upside. Threw a lot of interesting darts in the middle rounds though.
  • Quay Walker will “bust” only in fantasy terms. He’ll likely work well at run stopping but I don’t see him getting the kind of plays you need at LB to be successful in our league. Volume drafting is probably sensible to try to turn the team around. The more darts the better.
  • Embrace the D
  • Austin is nice there as an upside guy, though he’s tiny. I think the Steelers might be a bit more creative in his use than the Seahawks with Eskridge. I love the Hamilton pick and Ebikete could be awesome, always bet on athleticism in that position. And Lloyd could be Isaiah Simmons or Micah Parsons… Walker, I get, and I wouldn’t have passed on him at 3 – it’s more about the shallowness of the draft in that position than talent. But not much else to get excited about.

Mike’s fairly tepid assessment was “Lot of mid round talent reflecting lots of mid round picks.”

Neil

  • First two picks great, not much to shout about after then
  • Awful. Don’t like any of these picks
  • Cook felt like a major reach. Hutchinson is good but propped up by his draft capital in a super weak class. Did good work in the middle rounds though – I feel like everyone from Hutchinson to Tindall has a legit shot to be their team’s #1 at their position. And Snoop Conner has a realistic path to relevance.
  • Good value later in the draft, although Cook felt like a bit of a reach at the top
  • Nothing silly. Some players who will contribute. But I’m hardly tumescent reviewing it.
  • Decent
  • I felt Cook was bad value at 8/9 – I understood why he was mocked there because of the RB class being shallow – but to take him at 5 with Williams and Wilson or even Moore, Watson and Olave still there feels like a massively wasted pick for a guy who seems like he’s probably somewhere between Cole Beasley and JD McKissick. Willis has a massive upside if he develops enough as a passer to start.

Ian

  • Not many high picks but some good quality lower down
  • Didn’t have too much capital in the end, but did ok with it. Spiller was great value, I thought he’d go a round earlier (and he would have if Goody hadn’t made a big offer). Taking 3 TEs feels a bit wasteful to me though, and I can’t see how Dulcich becomes fantasy relevant in that offense – it’s just so crowded.
  • Got some good late round value with players falling to them. Could make up for a lack of early picks
  • Literally no one I was thinking about taking.
  • Not a lot to work with, but flags fly forever! Oooo Rah!
  • He traded all his picks to win. And won. In that sense it’s a 10/10. If we’re purely judging on picks made… they’re pretty bad picks, but what do you expect with so few and so few early.

Neil took the Max approach here: “Who are these guys.”

Ben and Stew

  • Okay at first, but Karlaftis was a reach
  • Reasonable solid effort without being spectacular
  • I loved Wilson as a prospect, so they’ve done well there. I wasn’t a big fan of Davis-Price, but can’t argue with the upside and he was quite cheap. Hated the Karlaftis pick though, I think he’s going to be one of those decent NFL guys but who maxes out at about 8 sacks. So not a fan there. They tend to do well with defensive players though.
  • Boom-bust profile
  • Pretty by the book. Nothing to get wildly excited about but nothing which makes me want to vomit in my mouth. Which is a nice change.
  • Good competent draft in a tough spot (6)
  • This draft comes down to Wilson really. And it’s really hard to know how good he’ll be if Zach Wilson continues his trend of trying to make Nathan Peterman look good retrospectively. Karlaftis should be fine, if not special – maybe in a Spags defence with his ears pinned back he might be more, but I’m not sure how long Spags will be around there. Pierce is an X factor, ridiculous athletic talent with true #1 ceiling, but he’s so raw he’s basically unprepared sushi.

Slatz

  • Love the first 5 picks
  • Don’t like it at all. Lots of reaches
  • I was comparatively low on London and Thibodeaux so I expect to be an outlier here. And I love Davis, but don’t think a rookie DT who needs a tonne of projection to be relevant in the NFL is worth a 3rd. I feel like there’s a lot of guys who will stick around the roster, I don’t think there are many who will be stars. Honestly, Harris is the only guy I think he got who he didn’t overdraft.
  • Seemed to know the guys he wanted to draft and took them
  • It’s obviously the best draft. Obviously. Because everyone else took the wrong players, which means he must have got the right ones.
  • Reasonable  draft for the awkward tweener drafting position

Here’s what Slatz had to say: “10/10 of course. Seriously though, passing on White to take Thibodeaux was a tough call, and needs to work out as RB was a real need. Davis is a gamble some will hate, but I love a guy like that and I had to hold myself back from taking him in the second, so for me I feel like that pick was value.”

Goody

  • Pretty rubbish
  • I didn’t like any of their picks bar Dotson (and didn’t really like the trade for him). Pierce and Allgeier feel like desperation picks for a win now team, and Asamoah isn’t going to contribute for at least a year, if not two. Otton might be decent, but that’s about it.
  • Decent value with limited picks
  • Lots of reaching. A number of players I wouldn’t have minded getting 2-5 rounds later. Not to my taste. But he’s happy and that’s nice.
  • The drive to succeed within the season leaves his drafts a bit threadbare.
  • Both Allgeier and Pierce represent the same thing – dice rolls on opportunity/volume with players of limited draft capital and questionable efficacy in bad situations. If both work out the value question goes out the window. If both fail then this looks pretty bleak. Both seem about as likely?

Here’s what Goody had to say: “The best draft ever.”

Benj

  • Average at best.
  • Too d heavy early on for me. Not many picks I liked
  • Didn’t have too much capital, but didn’t do much with it. I wasn’t a fan of Dean and most of the other players feel like they’ve got limited upside.
  • I like the mid round skill players. Be interested to see how the DTs turn out
  • Similar ignore-the-draft team building strategy to Goody. Comment withheld.
  • Hard to judge properly on someone who traded away high picks, without valuing in what was gained vs what could have been gained. Dean looks like a steal, but Philly have been a graveyard for LBs. If he balls out (and he has the talent to be Roquan Smith) that’s a really good spot to have grabbed him.

And here’s what Benj had to say: “Didn’t have a first, traded out of the second, didn’t stupidly reach for anyone, got some of the players I hoped for, but was patient and, again, didn’t stupidly reach for anyone I’d earmarked. I’m pretty happy that I got some contributors. I may not have a star in there but I think it gives me some solid depth.”

Trades

While we’re jumping all over the map, lets continue the trend and look at the trades that happened during the draft. This is what we thought, from least balanced trade to most balanced (and there’s a bit of judgement in this):

  1. Goody gets 2022 pick 20 (Jahan Dotson). Ian gets Jalen Hurts, Allen Lazard. (6 favouring Ian, 3 saying even.).
  2. Goody gets Tyler Lockett, 2022 pick 19 (Tyler Allgeier), 2023 Round 6 pick. Chris gets Mike Evans, Denzel Ward. (5 favouring Chris, 3 saying even, 1 favouring Goody)
  3. Ben and Stew get picks 69 (Sam Howell) and 99 (Daniel Bellinger). Chris gets pick 66 (Tyler Badie).  (4 favouring Chris, 4 saying even, 1 favouring Ben and Stew. And I think I was that one).
  4. Slatz gets 2022 pick 25 (Jalen Tolbert). Neil gets Fred Warner. (4 favouring Neil, 3 saying even, 1 favouring Slatz.
  5. Neil gets picks 93 (Myjai Sanders) and 113 (Jalen Nailor). Slatz gets pick 75 (Daxton Hill). (4 saying even, 3 favouring Slatz, 1 favouring Neil)
  6. Goody gets picks 17 (Dameon Pierce) and 47 (Brian Asamoah). Benj gets pick 28 (Jermaine Johnson), 38 (Romeo Doubs) and 39 (Demarvin Leal). (5 saying even, 2 favouring Benj, 2 favouring Goody – perfectly balanced)

I’ll try something as a summary: a net positive rating for all these trades by team. So you get +1 for each vote saying you won a trade and -1 for each vote saying your lost a trade.

  1. Chris: +7
  2. Iran: +6
  3. Neil: +1
  4. Benj: 0
  5. Slatz: -1
  6. Ben and Stew: -3
  7. Goody: -10

Max, Pete and Mike didn’t make any trades. Benj just made the one perfectly balanced trade. I guess there should be a way to get a bit more nuance here: Neil and Slatz only traded with each other, but I feel like Neil winning a trade involving a 3rd round pick and then losing a trade for an 8th round pick doesn’t really cancel out as much as this table says. And then, does Ben and Stew losing a trade for a 7th round pick really matter? But I can’t be bothered trying to work that out – the data is above if anyone fancies it. But anyway, we all agreed: Goody’s trades were bad, Chris and Iran’s were good.

Individual drafts

I’ll just do these in the order I listed teams in the survey. I’ll say that is so this doesn’t spiral into relentless negativity, but really its just cos its easier for me. For all of these, I’ll just list any answer which got more than 1 vote.

Pete

Best player

  • Breece Hall (7)

Best value:

  • David Ojabo (4)
  • Troy Andersen (3)

Worst value:

  • Christian Watson (3)
  • David Bell (3)
  • Troy Andersen (2)

Bust:

  • Christian Watson (4)
  • David Bell (3)

Sleeper

  • Sauce Gardner (3)
  • Bryan Cook (3)
  • Terrel Bernard (2)

It seems we were content with Breece Hall as the consensus number 1, and not at all high on Christian Watson or David Bell. So I guess we’ll find out if Pete knows better than the rest of us. Andersen getting support as both best value and worst value is fun, I love a polarising prospect.

Ben and Stew

Best player

  • Garrett Wilson (7)

Best value:

  • Ty Davis-Price (3)
  • Garrett Wilson (2)
  • Alec Pierce (2)

Worst value:

  • George Karlafits (5)
  • Sam Howell (3)

Bust:

  • Ty Davis-Price (5)
  • George Karlaftis (3)

Sleeper

  • Velus Jones (5)
  • Daniel Bellinger (2)

So safe to say Ty Davis-Price is a polarising guy. 3 calling him best value, 5 calling him a bust. Same with Karlaftis – not too many calling him a bust, but general agreement that he was bad value.

Goody

Best player

  • Jahan Dotson (5)

Best value:

  • Cade Otton (3)
  • Brian Asamoah (2)
  • Jahan Dotson (2)

Worst value:

  • Tyler Allgeier (3)
  • Dameon Pierce (2)
  • Jordan Stout (2)

Bust:

  • Tyler Allgeier (4)
  • Dameon Pierce (3)
  • Jahan Dotson (2)

Sleeper

  • Cade Otton (7)

Its probably not a good sign when you trade up for 2 RBs, and both get support as worst value or a bust. But then Dotson was overwhelmingly seen as the best player and still also garnered support as worst value and a bust too. Basically, everyone liked Cade Otton and that’s about it.

Mike

Best player

  • Kenneth Walker (4)
  • Devin Lloyd (3)
  • Quay Walker (2)

Best value:

  • Trey McBride (3)
  • Calvin Austin (2)

Worst value:

  • Quay Walker (6)

Bust:

  • Kenneth Walker (4)
  • Quay Walker (3)
  • Kyle Hamilton (2)

Sleeper

  • Phidarian Mathis (3)
  • Damone Clark (2)
  • Trent McDuffie (2)

So people either loved or hated Kenneth Walker – he’s either the best player or he’s a bust. Similar for Quay Walker, except that everyone thought he was overvalued too.

Slatz

Best player

  • Drake London (6)
  • Kayvon Thibodeaux (2)

Best value:

  • Jalen Tolbert (4)
  • Jordan Davis (2)
  • Christian Harris (2)

Worst value:

  • Kayvon Thibodeaux (3)
  • Jordan Davis (2)
  • Jalen Tolbert (2)

Bust:

  • Jalen Tolbert (5)
  • Jordan Davis (3)         

Sleeper

  • Daxton Hill (4)
  • Matt Corral (2)
  • Ty Chandler (2)

We generally seemed happy that Drake London was a perfectly fine pick in the 1st, and then it got polarising: Thibodeaux got support as best player and worst value; Jordan Davis got support as best value, worst value and bust; Jalen Tolbert was either best value or a bust. Basically, we have no fucking clue what is going on here, which is no different from any other team’s draft.

Neil

Best player

  • James Cook (5)

Best value:

  • Malik Willis (3)
  • James Cook (2)
  • Channing Tindall (2)

Worst value:

  • James Cook (3)
  • Aidan Hutchinson (2)
  • John Metchie (2)

Bust:

  • Malik Willis (3)
  • Aidan Hutchinson (3)
  • John Metchie (2)

Sleeper

  • Jeremy Ruckert (3)
  • Snoop Cooner (3)

Neil’s draft was weirdly polarising. It had the biggest range of overall ratings, and it also had an unusual spread of best value, worst value and busts. Basically, most people found something to like about Neil’s draft and something to hate too. And no one liked or hated the same players. So this will be an interesting one to see how it plays out in future years.

Benj

Best player

  • Nakobe Dean (7)
  • Jermaine Johnson (2)

Best value:

  • Romeo Doubs (3)
  • Nakobe Dean (2)
  • Tyquan Thornton (2)

Worst value:

  • Nakobe Dean (2)
  • Jermaine Johnson (2)
  • Logan Hall (2)

Bust:

  • Logan Hall (4)
  • Nakobe Dean (2)
  • Jermaine Johnson (2)

Sleeper

  • Desmond Ridder (3)
  • Charlie Kolar (3)
  • Kingsley Enagbare (2)

I guess some of us really liked Nakobe Dean (best value) and some didn’t (Bust, worst value), but we generally thought he was the best of a bad bunch. And then we didn’t really like Logan Hall.

Max

Best player

  • Jameson Williams (5)
  • Treylon Burks (2)
  • George Pickens (2)

Best value:

  • Jameson Williams (3)
  • George Pickens (2)
  • Brian Robinson (2)

Worst value:

  • Travon Walker (2)
  • Brian Robinson (2)

Bust:

  • Travon Walker (5)
  • Treylon Burks (2)
  • George Pickens (2)

Sleeper

  • Isiah Pacheco (3)
  • Kyle Phillips (2)
  • Brandon Smith (2)

Max’s best player results are fun, especially combined with the bust results, and probably drove his high ratings. The fact that Williams was overwhelmingly more popular than Burks but was picked quite a lot later is interesting. The fact that some people still loved Pickens over both is also interesting. And then the fact that most people thought Travon Walker would be a bust over any of them is interesting too. Although that last bit might just be a bit of noise driven by people not liking Walker as a prospect.

We also seemed to love Jameson Williams – 5 people called him the best pick, 3 called him the best value (as pick 7) and no one called him most likely to bust. So that’s interesting.

Iran

Best player

  • Isaiah Spiller (6)

Best value:

  • Isaiah Spiller (6)

Worst value:

  • Hassan Haskins (3)
  • Isaiah Spiller (2)
  • Greg Dulcich (2)

Bust:

  • Danny Gray (3)
  • Isaiah Spiller (2)
  • Hassan Haskins (2)
  • Greg Dulcich (2)

Sleeper

  • Chad Muma (5)
  • Chigoziem Okonkwo (2)

I wasn’t sure whether to include 4 players in the bust rankings for Ian simply because the 4th player was the 70th pick. Spiller being the overwhelming favourite player from this class, and then no real consensus on worst value or bust, seems to say that we basically liked the Spiller pick but not much else. Except Chad Muma. We liked the value there. 2/9 rated Spiller’s lack of speed as the pre-draft story they actually factored in when picking.

Chris

Best player

  • Skyy Moore (4)
  • Chris Olave (3)

Best value:

  • Rachaad White (4)
  • Wan’Dale Robinson (2)

Worst value:

  • Wan’Dale Robinson (3)
  • Skyy Moore (2)
  • Rachaad White (2)

Bust:

  • Wan’Dale Robinson (6)

Sleeper

  • Kaiir Elam (4)
  • Malcolm Rodriguez (3)
  • Isaiah Likely (2)

Seems like a couple of people liked Wan’Dale Robinson as good value, but most people thought he was a big reach. Rachaad White feels like the interesting one here, getting votes at best value and worst value. Someone also voted for Isaiah Likely at pick 119 as my worst value, which feels like they either thought I had a hell of a draft or didn’t read the question.

The sleeper picks were mildly interesting: Pickett got a vote as best value, but no picks as a sleeper. People did care about Pickett’s tiny hands – 4/9 said that was the pre-draft storyline they actually considered when making picks.

Random draft bits and pieces

There wasn’t any consensus on the biggest surprise. And some disagreement, between “defensive reaches so early in the second” and “it being so offense heavy.” The other comments were:

  • How far veluss Jones fell. The slating did for him. Bargain
  • Cook going top 5
  • No QBs picked for ages
  • That I didn’t excessively reach for anyone.
  • Goody blowing up his team for two mediocre RBs

There also wasn’t consensus on the best name. Sauce Gardner got 1.5 votes, but other than that there was only one vote per player: Smoke Monday, C Otton, Tyler Baddie (sic), Romeo Doubs, Snoop Conner, Ty Fryfogle and ZaQuandre White. Lets hope next year is better. A quick skim of a consensus board seems to think it might be: Henry To’oto’o, Habakkuk Baldonado are both in the top 50.

The only pick comment that people actually liked was “I expect Hassan to be Haskins some questions pretty quickly.” Must do better next year folks.

In terms of getting sniped, Tyler Badie was the only person who was mentioned twice as someone you wanted but some fucker picked first (and you are welcome). Props to Slatz for saying that he got sniped on Kyle Hamilton and then still traded Fred Warner to get a 3rd round pick where he couldn’t take Hamilton.

We’ve been arguing about how to quantify good or bad drafts, and it turns out we don’t really agree on who has been good or bad anyway.

Best drafter in Dbowl history

  • Chris (3)
  • Max (2)
  • Goody (1)
  • Benj (1)
  • Can’t remember this draft (2)

Worst drafter

  • Neil (3)
  • Slatz (2)
  • Pete, Mike and Ben & Stew (1)
  • Don’t want to say (1)

There was an odd consensus here. Simply because no one got votes as best draft and worst drafter. I didn’t check whether anyone voted for themselves. And no one seems to remember Iran drafting at all.

But as we’ve now got 3 years of post-draft surveys, I figured I’d take a look back and see how we rated each other over the last few years. There’s been some impressive consistency: Chris has been 2nd every year, Mike has been 4th every year, Iran has finished either 6th or 7th.. And some less impressive consistency, as Goody and Benj have each finished in the bottom 3 every year. Pete also has an excellent upwards trend.

Team202220212020TotalRank
Chris22261
Ben & Stew7=1192
Mike444123=
Max165123=
Neil537155
Pete3510186
Slatz7=93197=
Ian676197=
Benj988259
Goody81092710

The average total is 16. So above that you’ve been good, below that you’ve been bad. It feels overall like vague tiers of Chris, Ben & Stew, Mike and Max; Neil, Pete, Slatz, Iran; Benj and Goody. You could probably put Neil in either the tier above or below, or just make him a tier of his own. Over the last few years anyway. With the depth of analysis you’d expect, I can’t be bothered to see how that correlates to draft capital. But from memory it has felt like Benj, Goody and Iran haven’t had too many picks and have been rated as drafting badly as a result.

It is amusing that based on our surveys, 2 of us think Benj or Goody are the best drafters, and they have been consistently seen as very bad the last 3 years. And 2 of us think Mike and Ben & Stew have been consistently good recently but are seen as bad. While there’s more agreement that midtable Neil and Slatz have been bad.

But I am the best. That’s the key.

With the sort of talent we have for drafting and also for evaluating the performance of everyone else, you definitely want to rely on our collective pearls of wisdom about it. The only consensus was in “do more research” and “do more prep”. And then we had:

  • “too much hope in the top 10”
  • “If you draft the best guys you can be really good”.

Helpful. You want the best players, but also the people you think are definitely good players probably aren’t. But what about this?

  • “Trade all your picks. Then you can’t fail”
  • “Do not, under any circumstances, get involved in a draft day trade with any of the followi…” (I have no idea what happened here).

So definitely trade all your picks no matter what, but also don’t trade. And then my favourite:

  • “It’s a crap shoot and only 2 or 3 of us are any good at shooting those craps. And none of them are Slatz”
  • “Bet on athleticism, because the misses don’t matter and the hits are massive. Take players you like, it’s not as much fun rooting for dickheads.”

Its a crap shoot, but its also very easy to game. I particularly love the shout-out to Slatz (based on the last 3 years he’s not been good, but he hasn’t been awful) and also that the certainty on display in the latter one seems to be from Slatz.

General Dbowl stuff

I asked who you thought would win the league this year. You picked two favourites: Chris (4) and Iran (3). And then threw in Goody and Benj with 1 vote each as contenders. Essentially, if you made the playoffs last year, you have a chance this year.

3 people said Iran would repeat at the top. 3 people also said Pete would repeat the bottom, following by 2 votes for Mike. Neil, Max, Slatz and Goody also got votes for this shame. So that means that everyone thought Ben and Stew would be solidly mid-table, getting votes in neither category.

7 out of 9 thought the draft was at about the right time, so pencil it in for this time next year folks. And there was equal disagreement about whether we should fucking pick already (4) or drag things out more (3), so you can pencil in next year’s to take around a week.

The most divisive question in the draft was how impressive Ian getting through the whole draft in 0 seconds. The average score was 2.4, but that was made up of 4 ratings of 1 and 4 ratings of 5. So maybe expect some people to prioritise time and some people to not. How insightful.

There wasn’t much consensus on whether we need comp picks:  3 said good riddance to them, 5 said Benj should be ashamed for forgetting them, and one person said a 4th round pick for whoever pisses off Slatz the most. Expect a rule change submission soon.

And speaking of rule changes: 7/9 said they were open to a rule about creating an exempt list to get rid of players we morally object to. And 4/9 said that they had a rule change to submit. So expect a couple of rule changes coming through soon.

Right, that was long. I should probably give this an edit. I’m not going to though.

Thoughts on Trading in Dynasty

League Business Rookie Draft Trading No Comments

There have been a number of trades in the DynaBowl now, several of which have been seized on for their possibly lopsided nature (including one I have been involved in), while I am also aware of a number of trade offers or negotiations made which, to my mind haven’t always offered fair value. This isn’t malicious but I do think expectations may be off in the value of some players (and draft picks for that matter). Ultimately, we GMs value our players and picks however we value them and we are quite entitled to do that. If we can find someone willing to pay a price then that is what whatever we were selling was worth. But these are not houses and players and picks are not traded for money. They are traded for one another. It should be easier to evaluate the value of the component pieces. I’m writing the following from my own perspective, to let you know how I value players. This may help if you want to negotiate for one of my players, or it may help you in your own valuations when it comes to dealing with other people. Or it may be something you really don’t care about.

So there are 5 factors I consider in the value of a player:

  • Age
  • Health
  • Past production
  • Situation
  • Contract

These all contribute to a bottom line of what the player’s future production may be. Well, except the contract.

So, taking those one at a time.

Age. This is dynasty so while the right now matters, so does building for the future. Younger players are valued over older players. Running back value will start to fall in the late 20s and will probably fall off a cliff in their 30s. Frank Gore is the exception not the rule for the longevity of a productive RB career. Wide receivers on the other hand tend to stay relevant until their early 30s, but from 32 onwards there’s the risk of terminal decline. Generally speaking, if a player has 3 years until they hit these threshold ages, I’m not going to factor it into the cost. A lot changes in 3 years in dynasty and in the NFL, so as long as I feel assured I’m getting 3 years minimum out of a player, I won’t really change my value.

Health. We all know that the NFL can be brutal, but some players seem better placed to make it through a season unscathed (*cough* Andrew Luck). As this is about missing games, I’ll factor in suspensions as part of ‘health’ overall. So, what are the chances the player misses games? Are they above the baseline based on history? Ultimately, anyone can get injured and miss a game here or there, but has the player made a habit of it? Compare Arian Foster to Marshawn Lynch. Regardless of anything else, Foster is always going to be valued slightly lower because he has shown himself to be more injury prone. Josh Gordon’s value, likewise, is never going to be the same as Julio Jones, because he has the suspensions hanging over his head and one more strike and he could be out of the league, no matter if he comes back (eventually) to put up back-to-back league leading seasons.

Past Production. While you’d instinctively say that this is key, you’d not always be right and that’s because of rookies and potential. But yes, what a player has done before is a good indicator of what they will do again. However, this is more so at some positions than others. I’ve looked into consistency of production from year to year and some positions are significantly more volatile than others. RBs are more volatile than WRs, for example. Cornerbacks? Horribly unreliable. Some of that lack of consistency at RB is undoubtedly down to the greater likelihood of injury at the position. But I need to look at how likely a player is to be able to repeat what’s gone before – DeMarco Murray is a great example. He has had one great season but how much was him and how much was the next category, situation? And what about his health? Hasn’t he almost fallen apart previously? There are plenty of players who have turned out to be one season wonders, so while a breakout season is great, I’ll pay more if there’s a longer record of good performance.

Counter to that, of course, is the rookie or sophomore player. There’s nothing (in the way of NFL performance) to go on with the former while the latter could have got lucky and the league might catch up with him. That obviously takes evaluation and can be very personal. Some people may see Kelvin Benjamin’s rookie year as the floor to his future performance, others may say that it won’t get much better than that. Neither is right or wrong – it’s just personal

Situation. This is mainly relevant if something is significantly different from previous seasons, or if it’s about a draft pick’s chances after landing somewhere in the draft. Jordy Nelson has done well in Green Bay, he’s still in Green Bay, everyone else relevant is still in Green Bay, our evaluation can tick all the boxes and move on. Where situation really matters in an evaluation is where the player is on a new team, or the team has a new coach or quarterback or competing player. Or perhaps last year the offensive line was really unlucky and injured the whole time so the RB didn’t get much in the way of yards before first contact, but the line has now been upgraded and is fitter so the RB might be undervalued because his situation is better than it was for last year’s performance. All sorts of ways to evaluate this.

Contract. This is – not an afterthought exactly – but a lesser consideration. For now. In future years when bigger name players come up for free agency because their teams can’t afford the renewals, this will be a bigger issue, but right now this has not proved to be a major concern. Obviously if I am looking to trade for a player I need to make sure I can afford them and whether the contract is a fair valuation on the talent of the player. Likewise, how the guaranteed money has been spread out (is it frontloaded so the player gets cheaper – which can be changed post trade of course) because the figure on MFL isn’t necessarily a good guide to the cost of the player over the course of the contract.

Other leagues have pointed out ‘salary dump’ trades which may be a thing we come to in the future. This is where a player is on too high of a contract and it is hurting his team’s chances. Rather than take a hit by releasing the player, the team trades the player to a team with loads of cap space as well as a second player that is cheap and has some value – eg Crippled Underperforming Veteran ($55)  and Cheap Highly-Rated Prospect ($2) both get traded from Team A to Team B, with nothing going in reverse. What Team A is getting for this deal is cap space, which is a legitimate return, while team B gets the prospect as well as losing a chunk of cap space. I am led to believe this genuinely happens in the NBA.

Balancing A Trade

So those are the factors to consider, but how does one balance a trade? You have to consider the ceiling and the floor of the players involved and assess the likely returns and the context of where a player is going. An older player with only 1 or 2 seasons of good production left may be a valuable final piece to a team challenging for titles but be worth next to nothing to a rebuilding team, for whom 2 years of good production will be over before they stand a chance of competing. You’re unlikely to find a perfect balance between 2 players, so instead it’s about trade offs – Team A loses X but gains Y – that may be losing guaranteed performance but gains the potential for a higher level of performance sometime down the line, or perhaps loses an average player in a good situation but gains a player with better historical performance who has now moved to a worse situation.

But often to balance a deal there needs to be some kind of exchange of draft picks. Draft picks are a flexible currency that can fill any gap, be it by an exchange – eg swapping a 2nd round pick for a 3rd – or complete handover of a pick. Where you might not be able to find a player on your roster that a) has the appropriate level of worth to balance things out and b) that fills a position or role of need on your opponent, a draft pick can be the perfect make-weight.

How I Value a Draft Pick

And here is the nub of the issue. Let’s get some basics out of the way first. A pick in future drafts is worth less than a pick in the current/next draft. Why? Because you’re effectively paying interest on the pick because the person receiving it doesn’t get to use it for a year – you’re paying for the trade on Hire Purchase (H.P.) rather than in cash upfront. The general rule in the NFL is that a future pick is worth a round less than one in the current draft – e.g. to buy a 2nd round pick now you must pay a 1st round pick next year. The DynaBowl allows you to trade picks two years in advance (so picks in the 2017 draft in 2015) and I wouldn’t knock a 2017 pick back another round, personally, but the one round rule is pretty fair.

There is a second reason for the deflation of value of future picks though and that is you don’t know where they will end up in the draft. Which is more valuable in a 10 team league – the 1.06 in 2015 or a 2016 first? The 1.06 because you know where it is. That 2016 first could be 1.01 but it could also be 1.10. You can project based on the team where you think it might end up but bad teams can do well and good teams badly so that will only get you so far. As such, even a team I might project to get a high pick in 2016 I would ask for more than the 2016 first for my 1.06. Then you factor in the H.P. nature of using next year’s picks and I might also be wanting a 3rd/4th round pick for losing out on my first now.

As for equating a player with a pick, I’ll try to talk you through a few of my players and the kind of value I would place on them:

AJ Green – 3-4 first round picks

Green is one of the elite WRs in the NFL. The above price is generic first round picks rather than specific positions – if I had a sense of where they might fall I could specify whether it was 3 or 4. If I knew they were the 1.01, 1.02 and 1.03 in the next draft, that would do it. If they were spread over a couple of years drafts and projected being mid-to-late round picks then I’d want 4 (that’s if I’d sell at all).

My thinking behind this kind of price is that, despite a poor year last year (dogged by a foot injury), Green is one of a select group of players who should put up top 10, if not top 5, performance at his position for the next 3-5 years. The chances of me finding a player in the first round of the draft who can put up elite levels of performance consistently are slim, even with top 3 picks. There aren’t many of these players and if there were they wouldn’t be called ‘elite’. Having several shots in the first round certainly won’t guarantee me a like-for-like replacement but it should mean I grab several players who will be meaningful contributors.

Because this is all picks and working on the assumption that I won’t get to use some or all of those picks before the next season there’s an H.P. element to this valuation too. I would have these picks but they would no longer contribute to my points in the next season (or seasons if some of those picks stretch to 2017). That’s another reason the number of picks is so high.

Kelvin Benjamin – 1.02-1.04

Benjamin has one season under his belt, so has a long time to go in the NFL and in the DynaBowl. He was one of three rookie WRs to make it to 1,000 yards, something which is usually a pretty rare feat. He is the primary WR in a team with a pretty strong QB (whatever you think of Cam, this isn’t like having the Jets or Bills QB throwing him the ball). He is a player we know can produce decent numbers in the NFL but equally there are a few red flags on him that suggest he’s not that likely to join the group that features Green, Julio Jones, Antonio Brown etc. As such the assumption at this point would be that he represents the middle ground of what you would expect from a top tier draft pick – he’s not a bust but will probably settle just outside the elite guys. He is a solid WR.

The upside of selling at this price is that you could draft someone who does become one of the elite players. The downside is that you could draft a bust (for example, Justin Blackmon or Trent Richardson). Trading for the pick would be a bold move in that you’re willing to take the gamble.

In the latest draft, I would have put Benjamin ahead of Parker and behind White and Cooper, placing him between 1.03 and 1.04 in the DynaBowl draft as it turned out, but the 1.02-1.04 cost is meant to be more generic.

Andre Ellington – 1.09-2.01

Ellington still has a lot of potential, but he was also a little too injury prone in 2014 and, with the drafting of David Johnson, has a threat on his own team. He’s an exciting pass-catching running back but may well become part of a committee. That doesn’t mean he can’t be effective and useful in fantasy though. The end of the first round/beginning of the second is a place where there’s a lot more risk than at the top of the first. Ellington has shown he can do it in the NFL, when fit, but has also raised question marks and risks. if we were looking at what he’d shown in 2013 he’d probably be a fraction lower than the Benjamin valuation but he’s dropped back now.

Some people are going to be lower on him and would never pay this price, and that’s fine, but some are going to see the upside and be happy to pay this. If the league isn’t as high in general a price for sale, might have to be a bit lower.

It’s at this kind of level that valuations tend to become more varied from one owner to the next.

Michael Floyd – 2.02-2.06

Floyd hasn’t suffered injuries, he’s just ended up as a pretty bog-standard lead-off receiver. Nothing special. Will do a job as the 3rd or 4th receiver in a Dynabowl line-up. 2014 had been touted as the year he would break out and it never happened, at least in part down to the multiple injuries at QB in Arizona, but also due to John Brown coming out of nowhere. He could still go big but it’s looking less and less likely.

Terrance Williams – low 3rd/high 4th round pick

Williams now seems defined as an average WR2 in Dallas which means that in fantasy terms he might be handy as a bye-week fill in or in case of injuries. He’ll have the occasional 100 yard game and will probably grab somewhere between 3 and 6 TDs a season, but he’s probably not a reliable every-week starter.

To be honest, he’s probably not going to get traded directly for a pick, but Williams might be the kind of makeweight who gets packaged into a deal and this is the kind of value I’d associate with him were I to deal him.

Josh Huff – low 3rd/high 4th round pick

Huff is kind of the opposite of Williams. He’s a guy who’s done next to nothing so far but is an interesting prospect. He’s supposed to be well liked in Philly and the Chip Kelly offense gets (some) people excited. Huff is the kind of player a lot of GMs like to stash because he might breakout. There’s a low chance but, the theory goes, if he does breakout he could go big. Part of being a dynasty GM is being primed for when undervalued players blow-up and taking advantage. Huff could be one of those guys. Or he could be nothing and be out of the league in 2 years.

Andre Williams – 4th round pick

Williams came into the Giants as a back-up to Rashard Jennings and was called into duty when Jennings unsurprisingly got injured early in the season. He clocked up over 850 all-purpose yards and 7 touchdowns, though didn’t look great while doing it. He was fine, but nothing more. The 4th round is where back-up running backs were drafted recently (a few at the end of the third round too). These are players unlikely to see much playing time, but if the guy in front of them goes down they will likely take on the workload. The value is probably higher to the person holding the lead back, ie Rashard Jennings, in this case, than anyone else, but the value is still there. Especially for a player backing up someone injury prone.

Mario Williams – ???

This is tough. I genuinely have no idea where I’d value him. At DE he was a consistent top 5 player and the drop off after him was fairly steep, but at LB I don’t know that he’s as valuable. Equally, in the new Rex Ryan system (see situation above), I have no idea if he will generate as many fantasy points. I wouldn’t want to let him go but there’s always the chance an offer could come in that would make me sit up and think.

I put this in just to illustrate that you can’t always put a price on everyone’s head.

 

Does it matter if people’s valuations differ?

No. They are bound to differ. One person will look at a player and see all the risks while another will see all the potential. And, as I said before, a veteran with a 2 year window is of no use to someone rebuilding but is loads of use to someone challenging for the title.

However…

Players sold for significantly under market value present two problems for the league – the small picture and the big picture.

The small picture is that every trade that occurs establishes precedent and influences negotiations that happen in future trades. “I’m not paying Z because he only paid X to get Y”, “If A is worth B then C must be worth D”. While one or two trades might not have an impact, the more that occur, the harder it will be to construct a fair trade.

Likewise, the GMs involved in selling off players or picks under market value may find themselves a target for unbalanced trade offers looking to take advantage of them which could lead them to misinterpret value or to back away from trading. Likewise, other players may stop trading if they can’t see a clear (and big) win for them in the trade. Ideally trades should give each side a win, but it’s inevitable that each trade can be interpreted differently and so could be seen as a win for either side by different GMs. If GMs get used to seeing trades in which there’s a clear (and sizeable) winner, they may not wish to work on producing a balanced trade, insisting on the big-win-or-nothing approach.

And then there’s the bigger picture which is that lopsided trades inevitably lead to the significant weakening of one team and strengthening of another, altering the competitive balance of the league. At first this should be part of the ebb and flow but if it becomes a consistent trend my concern would be that one or two teams could become very strong and one or two could become cut off at the bottom. The ongoing risk from this is that the GMs at the bottom decide they don’t want the challenge of turning their team around and quit. Likewise, GMs in the middle could get despondent if one or two teams become particularly dominant based on lopsided trading.

I don’t think this is an issue now. I think we’re all new to this and minimal trading has gone on before. Everyone is slowly making their way through it and learning how to get the most out of what they have. This post wasn’t to castigate. It was supposed to offer an insight into how I value players and provide something to think about how others do. You may agree or disagree with my values. That’s fine.

However, I think that as this is a friendly league rather than one with a bunch of internet randoms (though you could argue we are friendly internet randoms, of course) we shouldn’t try to take advantage of each other. Too much. Everyone wants to be the guy who gets one over on another owner but given we all have different experience levels and have done differing amounts of research, there’s always room for a little rip-off.

If you’re not sure if you’re getting good value in a trade, there are resources. If you google dynasty fantasy football you can find plenty of sites (I’m not going to hand this to you on a plate – find the URLs yourself). Check out ADP (average draft position) information to get a sense of how valuable players are considered in general. There are forums you can ask questions. If necessary, and if you feel comfortable doing so, ask a fellow league member, someone you feel you can trust. I am happy to offer my services and I am sure a few others would too, though whether you trust us is a different matter.

The Dyna Hard Draft Pick Trade Value Chart is Leaked

Mock Draft Rookie Draft No Comments

Sources close to the Dyna Hard camp have compiled the following document, said to contain a combination of the thoughts of the team GM, Chris Braithwaite and the results of alleged conversations and emails between Braithwaite and Jimmy Johnson. The veracity of the document is unknown.

Holding the first pick in the draft gets you thinking about trades. That’s what I’ve found anyway. So I used my contacts to get in touch with Jimmy Johnson, creator of the most widely accepted NFL Draft Trade Value chart, to see whether he wants to use his knowledge of the Dynabowl (he’s a big follower – and a massive East Flanders fan) to create a prospective chart for the league as it heads in to its first rookie draft. Being that its out of football season and Johnson’s time isn’t taken up with applying ludicrous amounts of hairspray, the former Cowboys coach was delighted to take up the challenge.

The first issue that Jimmy told me we had was accounting for there only being 10 teams in the league. “Well Jimmy,” I said, “why not just collect the picks in your chart into groups of 3 or 4, and average them out?”.

Jimmy thought this was an interesting idea. “So, the first 3 picks in the NFL draft are worth 3,000, 2,600 and 2,200. That means in the Dynabowl they would be worth a total of 7,800, and an average of 2,600. Good plan. Let’s do it.”

So using this methodology, picks 1, 2, 5, 6, 7 and 10 of each round were the average of 3 NFL picks. Picks 3, 4, 8 and 9 were average across 4 picks. So here’s the Jimmy produced.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
1 2600 563.33 260 108 42 26.6 13.8
2 1700 530 245 96 39.5 25.4 12.6
3 1375 505 232.5 85 38.25 24 11.2
4 1255 465 212.5 75 36.25 22.8 10
5 1050 430 195 72 34.5 21.4 8.6
6 908.33 400 180 66 33.03 20.2 7.4
7 810 370 165 60 31.8 19 6.2
8 730 325 147.5 53 30.4 17.6 4.8
9 660 305 134 48.5 29.2 16.4 3.6
10 603.33 276 120 45 27.8 15 2.3

 

“I love it! Love it!” exclaimed Jimmy.

I, however, was less enthused. “I’m not so sure Jimmy. This is great, but there’s a problem. The Dynabowl and the NFL aren’t quite equivalent.”

“Well sure,” said Jimmy. “The Dynabowl is far more important. The Super Bowl trophy doesn’t even have an animal on it.”

“Good point Jimmy, but that’s not what I mean. The big issue is that the Dynabowl doesn’t draft offensive linemen. There are roughly 25 core players in an NFL team, but 5 of them are ineligible for the Dynabowl. We need to fix the chart to factor them out.”

“Hmmm. Well, no one notices the big galoots unless they mess up, so I’m in full agreement with the Dynabowl eliminating them. So what do we do?”

“Well Jimmy, the Dynabowl doesn’t use 20% of the players the NFL drafts, so we need to remove 20% of the picks from the chart somehow.”

Jimmy thought for a moment. “No one likes offensive linemen. But don’t tell Larry Allen I said that. He’d eat me. We could just remove the bottom 20% of picks?”

“So from the 224 non-compensatory picks, we’d remove 45 picks? That would mean that our draft includes the first 179 picks in your draft chart?”

“You got it skipper.”

“Skipper? Ok Jimmy. So the Dynabowl draft has 70 picks. 179 into 70 is about 2.5. So that would mean we’d just count down your chart, and do the value of each 2.5 picks.”

“Exactly champ, exactly. Explain it to me?”

“Champ? You know I’m picking first overall, right? So the first 2 picks are worth 3,000 and 2,600. That’s 5,600. The third pick is worth 2,200. We take half of that value… 1,100 Jimmy, stop looking confused. That means the first pick is worth 6,700. The second pick gets that half of the third pick, plus the value of the next two picks (1,800 and 1,700), so its worth 4,600. The third pick is worth the 6th, 7th and half the 8th, so 3,800.”

“Brilliant! Perfect! Those are all definitely numbers. Can you just fiddle around with the rest of the chart for me? That’s how we did it in my Cowboys days – everyone else did the work and I took the credit.”

“We know Jimmy, we know.”

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
1 6700 1710 955 522.5 238 114.5 79.3
2 4600 1590 905 490 216 108 77.5
3 3800 1480 845 460 204 102 74.3
4 3350 1400 780 427.5 191 100.75 71.7
5 3025 1330 726 397.5 179 97.25 69.3
6 2725 1270 678.5 365 166 94 66.7
7 2400 1205 647.5 338 154 91 64.3
8 2175 1145 615 312 141 87.75 61.7
9 1960 1080 585 288 129 84.75 59.3
10 1840 1020 552.5 262 120.5 81.7 56.7

 

“There you go Jimmy, what do you reckon?”

“That looks great! Brilliant! Fantastic! Jerry will love it.”

“Who is Jerry”? Never mind. It seems fairly sensible. The league kind of agrees that picks below the 2nd round are likely to have minimal value, and it seems to show that to trade up to get a pick in the third you shouldn’t have to pay too much. I think it overvalues the number 1 pick a little bit (which I’m not gonna complain about as the owner of it this year). To go from number 3 to number 1 you’d have to give up your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 6th round picks. That’s not right. But apart from that it looks great. But then that’s a criticism of your chart in the NFL too.”

“Look kid, this draft value chart thing is hooey. We made it to try to cheat the system, and its seems to have become the system. Every team has different values on picks, and that changes based on who is available at any given pick. Sometimes people will overpay based on this, sometimes people will underpay. Our chart was based on a series of pick trades over a series of years, and its stood up even over different collective bargaining agreements. But only time will tell if its applicable to your league. Quit worrying kid. Now how much am I getting paid for this?”

“Kid? I’m 30. As to money… I’ll just pop out and get it for you.”

 

I wonder if he’s still waiting there?

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